The RACER Mailbag, December 28

Welcome to the RACER Mailbag. Questions for any of RACER’s writers can be sent to mailbag@racer.com. Due to the high volume of questions received, we can’t guarantee that every letter will be published, but we’ll answer as many as we can. Published questions may be edited for length and clarity. Questions received after 3pm ET each Monday will appear the following week.

The RACER Mailbag will be taking next Wednesday off and return on January 11. Thanks for all your letters this year!

Q: I haven't been upset enough with IndyCar in recent months to write into the Mailbag. I don't care what Indy Lights is called, I don't watch it. Penske doesn't owe it to me to share his business plan. I want the cars to be more powerful and we'll still see that happen, partially, though I am sick of the DW12 -- it would look so much better if they reduce some of the front overhang and can design around the windscreen to integrate into the whole shape of the car.

But I'm writing to say what a monumental mistake IndyCar is making by excluding IndyCar from IndyCar tracks on iRacing. It's ridiculous. I can't even articulate why, because it's so obvious. I'm a "casual-plus" fan -- I don't own many books or memorabilia, I can't recite every Indy 500 winner, etc.  But I can name all current drivers and teams, I watch most races, I have a favorite driver, I attend a race every now and again, I try to get my friends/family interested. I'm a fan IndyCar needs to hold on to.

And IndyCar has totally disenfranchised me. It's so fun to try to run 200 laps at Indy with 32 other drivers. It's so engaging to jump in my rig for a half hour after watching a qualifying session and see if I can come close to Will Power's pole time. Among many others, I've raced against Robert Wickens and Alex Gurney. iRacing and IndyCar worked so well during the lockdown. Of course it's not the real thing, but it's competition and it's fun and it's engaging.

I'm less angry and more... again, disenfranchised. Will I be less likely to watch an IndyCar race this year? Yes, and it's not because I'm angry. It's because iRacing gave me a way to directly and personally connect to the real deal, which increased the amount of interaction and engagement I have with the real series.

Corey in New Orleans

MARSHALL PRUETT: Where the main issues exists here is IndyCar chose -- and that’s the correct word -- to sign away all gaming rights to its new and sole vendor. That choice is very different than NASCAR, for example, which signed a console game deal with one company and a streaming game deal with another. IndyCar had options to do the same and chose not to. Said another way, nobody forced IndyCar to sign the deal.

Here, IndyCar chose to abandon the throngs of iRacing fans who, in the decade-long absence of an official IndyCar game, have signed up and paid for the pleasure of racing Indy cars and building strong global communities with other sim racers. Letters like yours speak to the power of iRacing’s IndyCar family.

And now, with a new gaming partner that might have the worst reputation of any game producers I’ve heard of, IndyCar signed away everything to that partner at the complete expense of all those who’ve kept IndyCar gaming alive via iRacing. I’ve lost track of how many people told IndyCar they were making a giant mistake with its vendor choice. Let’s just hope the new vendor defies everything and delivers the game because if they don’t, this will go down as one of the bigger "I told you so" failures for IndyCar.

Q: Not that Michelin Pilot Challenge is hurting for car entries, but would the inclusion of an alternative fuel/power class like Super Taikyu's ST-Q draw in interest from manufacturers? We have seen them rush to GTP due to the hybrid factor, and being able to showcase another green car within their portfolio in the same paddock could help draw in potential sponsors and car buyers, especially with the road car DNA that MPC has that the top series doesn't.

I understand that the series as a whole isn't meant for factory programs, but by being separated from the others from a championship standpoint, I think it could help draw in eyes of both fans and manufacturer executives in a series where a lot of young drivers are looking for help to make the jump up. 

Kurt Pohs

MP: Look at most racing organizations with multiple tiers (IndyCar and Indy NXT, IMSA with the WeatherTech Championship and MPC, as you note) and they tend to save the major technology advancements and big promotional items for the top category where the most attention will be drawn. Selling manufacturers on doing something significant in a series where you’re lucky to get 25,000 to tune in just won’t happen.

Fancy seeing one of the new Super Formula cars adapted for IndyCar? It would be different... Photo courtesy of Super Formula

Q: Seeing the news about Super Formula's new car on RACER.com is one more reminder of how stale IndyCar's DW12 has become. Given that Dallara builds chassis for Super Formula as well as Haas's F1 car, I have to believe the only hindrance to IndyCar getting an update is down to IndyCar. The blind desire for a growing grid count isn't adding quality, and the high-tech aspect of open-wheel racing is quickly lost as the cars approach legal drinking age. Unless R.P.'s plan is to position IndyCar as the pre-eminent vintage racing series, it is becoming harder with each passing season to be excited for what's to come. The cars do matter. That's what drew me as a kid and has maintained my interest as drivers and teams come and go. New cars every year like F1 aren't necessary, but at least once a decade doesn't seem unreasonable. 

Marc, Columbia, MD 

MP: There aren’t enough team owners pushing the series to do a new car so the series isn’t doing a new car. And when one of the biggest team owners also owns the series and that team owner believes there’s no need for a new chassis, we have this ridiculous scenario where the same DW12 has been in service across three Presidents -- Obama, Trump, and Biden -- so far.

And depending on how our next election cycle goes, IndyCar’s vintage racing chassis could continue its service under another a fourth President. If that doesn’t embarrass every decision maker at IndyCar, I don’t know what will.

Q: One of my first memories of motorsports was when I attended the Canadian Grand Prix. When I first arrived, there was only one car practicing on track. I couldn’t see the car, I could just hear it on the far side of the circuit -- downshifting, upshifting, accelerating, decelerating -- and as it approached the sound was amazing, so loud my ears hurts. And the car looked so vibrate and sleek. I’m in my ’60s now and I still remember that day. I got a similar feeling when I attended my first CART race at Cleveland. The cars were blindingly fast on that track.

Now, all the talk of the next generation IndyCar has me worried. I think "hybrid" and I think quiet, boring race cars.

I know the most important thing is to have a healthy series, but I think it is so important to make the cars look and sound good.

Mark, Buffalo, NY

MP: I’m not sure where the misperception started, but there will be no change in engine sound or volume when IndyCar goes hybrid in 2024. None.

It’s the same exact engine making the same exact sounds you heard in 2012 and 2022: Turbocharged V6s with a peak of 12,000 rpm. The only addition from a sound perspective is the sound of the energy recovery systems whining under braking as the motor generator units engage and charge.

As for the cars looking better, I’d just be happy to have something that looks fresh and futuristic. We head into 2023 and the sixth year of the UAK 18 bodywork and the fourth season with the aeroscreen.

Q: A growing number of entries in combination with limited resources (both from teams and manufacturers) has been cited as a reason for the scuttled new IndyCar engines and presumably new chassis. But at what point does another entry gain more eyeballs than new equipment? I'm way more enticed to watch 22 state of the art, new-tech IndyCars than 27 cars that are almost old enough to drive themselves. To be fair, I'm not a "normal" sports fan and am far more interested in the tech side than your average fan, but still. At some point more entries doesn't move the needle more than new tech, and I think we've reached that point. Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with this for some time as there is clearly no plan in place. 

Stoked about IMSA, though! Can't wait for the Rolex 24!

Michael Hart

MP: You’ve just been hired as IndyCar’s new VP of Common Sense, Michael.

If a series decides its best course of action is to keep doing the same old thing with the same old cars and engines, and it can’t attract a single new manufacturer to join in its vision -- even when the series announced it was going hybrid -- you’d think that someone with authority within the series’ ownership group might see this as a problem. But as we continue to learn, its owners are totally fine with IndyCar becoming today’s version of the former Grand-Am Rolex Series.

Grand-Am was low-tech/old-tech, stuck to the same old formula forever with its fugly Daytona Prototypes, and became totally irrelevant while touting big grids. And yes, there were years where tons of DPs were racing; but after the initial intrigue wore off, people stopped watching, stopped buying tickets (with the Rolex 24 as the only serious exception) and Grand-Am became a lame "vintage series" in the world of sports cars. Sound familiar?

Some of those original DW12s are still being put to work, depending on how hard a life they've had. Eric Gilbert/Motorsport Images

Q: Did I read or hear you say recently that the "new" 2.2L V6 Hybrid motors will require $250,000-$300,000 in upgrades to the DW12 chassis? Is that per chassis (i.e., primary and backup)? And what are these upgrades?

Regarding the "double-secret" MAHLE ERS unit, is part of the complexity due to it being the first hybrid unit for use on an oval? 

And lastly, besides major crash damage to the survival cell, is there an average lifespan for a Dallara DW12 chassis? How long can they withstand normal yearly fatigue? And how often do teams replace them? I don’t know if the teams can just buy a new tub from Dallara and bolt on the remaining parts.

I assume that brand-new tubs will be of better quality and potentially lighter than older tubs. How many top IndyCar teams upgrade these regularly. 

Tom Harader, Florence, OR

MP: Depending on who I’m talking to, the $250,000-per-chassis upgrade figure to $300,000 or more is cited. That’s mostly consumed by the new and lighter transmissions and bellhousings, and other new componentry associated with the ERS units.

Some DW12s from 2012 are still in use today. Length of use all depends on how many big crashes are experienced and whether structural integrity or torsional rigidity is called into question. Where an original tub from 2012 will have undergone countless tack-on safety updates, new tubs are built with all of them included during the construction process. I’m told the new tubs are lighter as a result, but don’t know by how much.

Q: At this point, with no new engine on the horizon, why can't (or rather, why shouldn't) IndyCar partner with the Japanese Super Formula to come up with a common engine and chassis? Honda would probably be on board, since they supply engines to both. Chevy may need a little coaxing. But if you did that, you'd probably have a natural third manufacturer with Toyota. Or, very unlikely (say 0.000000000001% chance) even run the 2026 F1-spec engines (maybe with some slight modifications to ensure there isn't a run-away favorite motor).... That would definitely bring the speed back at Indy!

Similar with a common chassis -- can't they just build one to work in both series? Dallara would probably be happy. And if you did something like that, there’s instant potential for one-off crossovers, which would garner interest. IMSA and the WEC worked together; it is high time IndyCar to do the same. 

Kevin

MP: Actually, IMSA and WEC didn’t work together to ultimately reach a shared solution. They couldn’t agree on a common set of rules so they went down two completely different paths. The only thing that’s common is IMSA and WEC agreed to let each other’s completely different formulas race in each other’s series and try to balance their performances through the technical regulations.

How about IndyCar comes up with a better and more inclusive engine formula?

Q: I read the letter from Duncan in Ottawa about the tricky challenge of getting electric race cars to go 500 miles. There is a startup in Israel, Electreon, that is testing embedded coils in the pavement to allow battery recharging while cars are in motion. Something to consider if ever the Indianapolis track is repaved.

Roger in Omaha

MP: Thanks for writing in, Roger.

Pit stops have been honed to a highly choreographed art...but maybe it will be a lost art once electric racing takes over and the cars get recharged on track! Phillip Abbott/Motorsport Images

Q: I’m writing to discuss "The Split" by John Oreovicz, which has been out now for over a year, and is well-researched to say the least. However, I have a problem with the name -- everyone except me uses the term "The Split" and I know the author was merely using the common handle. My daughter, who gave me the book as a birthday gift, tells me to stop taking issue with the name since everyone has been using it for over 20 years now. But the fact of the matter is that Tony George merely started his own series without taking anything away from CART (not one employee, not one team, not one venue, not one of anything belonging to CART). This was not like a divorce where someone has to decide who gets what. As I read this book, I took notes on about 15 items which did not cover both sides of the question or there things here or there omitted. By and large the author was spot on, though, and I tried to reach out to Oreovicz to maybe have lunch and compare notes, but never received an answer. I highly recommend the book to those interested -- it’s a good read and well worth it. 

Glenn Timmis

MP: It was a split in every way, shape, and form, Glenn. Tony George was not an angel who woke up one morning with an idea to start his own series and did so with no malice towards CART. He was fully aware that the IRL would take away the biggest attraction to CART’s teams and sponsors and eventually forced those teams/sponsors to leave CART or risk destabilization and failure. It was The Split and will always be The Split because that’s exactly what took place.

Q: I was going to pen a diatribe, but perhaps shorter is better: This is the first year that I’m looking forward more to IMSA at Road America than the Indy 500, and that makes me sad.

Ben Malec, Buffalo Grove, IL

MP: I truly can’t wait for the new IndyCar season to start because of the titanic battles we’ll see -- and always see -- between drivers and teams. But I almost don’t see the cars anymore because they’re so old and tired to my eyes. Going on 12 years with the same basic package is mind numbing. IMSA, with the new hybrid GTP cars…that’s got all of my interest. Look forward to seeing you at Elkhart Lake.

Q: I'm sure that licensing agreements are more complicated than any of us realize, but it seems that IndyCar is missing another marketing opportunity by ending its agreement with iRacing. No objections to a console game, but why not both? iRacing is a proven, existing platform with all the infrastructure already in place. Wouldn't it be great if there was a virtual iRacing series that ran in conjunction with the real-life series? How about connecting with some sim racing manufacturers to give it a fancy marketing name like the IndyCar iRacing eSports Challenge Presented by Fanatec and do some cross-promotion? Maybe include some of the current IndyCar drivers who are also on iRacing? Why not offer up some prizes at the end of the year and crown a virtual Esports champion along with the real IndyCar champion? There's much more that could be done in this area to increase fan engagement. 

John P, Brownsburg, IN

MP: I hope IndyCar’s new marketing VP -- whomever they end up hiring -- has played a console version or streamed an IndyCar game at least once in their life. For who’s left, I’d bet you wouldn’t be able to find one person among the ownership or senior leadership who have any experience or interest in gaming.

IndyCar does cross-promotions with other sports like Major League Baseball. Could a virtual cross-over work too? Chris Jones/Penske Entertainment

Q: I grew up watching NASCAR in the Midwest in the 2000s thanks to my mother, who learned of it from a friend of hers when she was young. I knew nothing about IndyCar or F1 until 2015/2016 when I got "F1 2016" and began to understand there was more to racing than just NASCAR. I began to closely follow IndyCar in 2017 (and I suppose Fernando's first attempt was a bigger draw to me than the actual IndyCar drivers at the time.)

I attended my first race in 2019 at Pocono, my second in 2022 at Iowa, and was planning on attending more races in 2023, despite the rising ticket prices.

iRacing and the IndyCar on iRacing is what got me into following IndyCar more. There is a strong and passionate community there that supports the ideals of American open-wheel racing. I made good friends there, and introduced new friends into IndyCar. I can probably testify that I got at least four people into the series from within my own social group, and got many more people interested from the leagues I was involved in running.

And now it's all gone. No more broadcasts or even personal streams (free marketing for IndyCar and everything), can't run real life IndyCar tracks anymore in official races. IndyCar said, "Oh but they still exist as a license to use on the sim and you can run them offline or in hosted," but that's like saying to a basketball team, "You can still compete in pick-up games or HORSE, but don't you dare think of competing in the NBA."

The whole thing has drastically soured my and my friends’ views on IndyCar to the point where they’re pretty much asking, "Why bother with the series?" IndyCar has been looking to get a younger fan base, and the actions that were revealed to us recently shows that IndyCar is more than eager to burn a passionate community chasing something that might not even exist.

Evan Adams

MP: At least in my lifetime, I don’t know if IndyCar -- as an organization -- has ever felt older and more out of touch that it does right now.

Q: I'm not bashing NBC/Peacock's coverage of IndyCar, but I have one small request:

I've noticed that on the IMSA coverage, when the broadcast goes to break on Peacock, the cameras are left running so we can still see what's going on. More often than not, it seems that with the IndyCar coverage, we're greeted with the "Stay tuned, we'll be right back" screen, and can't see what's happening!

Can you please bend the ear of the NBC Santa and see if the cameras can be left on during the IndyCar Peacock breaks, like IMSA? We are paying for it, I'm guessing it wouldn't cost the broadcast anything, and we know it could be done.

William Vincent IV

MP: The series reads the Mailbag each week, so if they’re in agreement, I’m sure it will be passed on, William.

Q: I write in today as a very disappointed fan of IndyCar and as a (depending on when you publish the Mailbag and barring a last-minute miracle) former competitor in the iRacing IndyCar world. The December 21 announcement shook all of us badly, especially with regard to broadcasting our races. I could live without the iRacing Indy 500 or official races on tracks that are on the current schedule, but to remove our abilities to broadcast and stream private races is completely senseless. It feels like IndyCar does not value us in any way, maybe due to sheer ignorance or because they think they can do better on another platform. In truth, it harms the sport as a whole.

And what is that value that we provided?  For 2023, IndyCar broadcasts of iRacing events (including private events like Lionheart and the Elite Racing League, as well as public races produced by channels such as RaceSpot and RaceVerse) reached over 3.5 million unique viewers. Streaming star Jimmy Broadbent won a split of the iRacing 500 in 2020 (he wasn't even in the top flight) and his stream of the race and subsequent reaction has over 1.6 million views between the two videos. Yes, you read that correctly: More people watched a streaming star run a virtual race on YouTube than watch most IndyCar races on cable. If you watch his reaction, that race means that much to all of us. There is a loyal and large following for what we do, anywhere from a couple of hundred to a few thousand people, every week that tune in to watch our races live and countless more watch them on ESTV.

In the winter, when IndyCar goes silent because they're scared of the NFL, we continue to race, often with the real-life competitors involved. Two weeks ago, Robert Maleczka won the Elite Racing League's version of the Indy 500, beating Sage Karam, Oliver Askew and Peter Dempsey. Robert also won the May event in the same league, beating a field that included Tony Kanaan. The point is, there are real eyeballs watching real broadcasts of us racing this car, and with IndyCar's foolish decision those eyeballs are either going to go away or watch something else, and none of those numbers included our private streams or team-based channels such as I5G which reach countless more.  

If IndyCar is under the assumption that we are going to migrate to the new "game," I have a feeling that they are sorely mistaken. Nearly all of the top-level drivers in the sim aren't abandoning iRacing...they are simply parking their virtual IR18s and planning on doing something else. Motorsport Games has a long history of producing titles that are basically unplayable, and with the money that we have all invested I doubt many are going to waste our specialized and powerful sim equipment driving in a poorly-done console title. Their last effort, according to Jalopnik, is so bad that NASCAR is actively looking for a new developer with the game so widely panned that it’s considered an embarrassment to the sport. I'm not going to support it, and though I do not pretend to speak for the community I doubt any of them will either.  To make it worse, IndyCar's tone-deaf response to RACER just poured gasoline onto an already hot fire. Whomever made that decision should be summarily dismissed. It was that unprofessional.

For me, I guess I'll start learning to drive with a virtual roof over my head and in/for a series that not only gets it but truly supports the sim/gaming community. I don't want to do that, but unfortunately, IndyCar left me with no choice. So here's to all of the drivers, league owners, sponsors and friends that have made the last two years an incredibly special fun ride. I've had a heck of a good time, and I'll deeply appreciate all of the awesome races we had together. Until the brain trust at 16th and Georgetown takes the virtual shackles off our virtual car, I'm done promoting them or supporting them in any way. 

Mark Murphy, two-time and defending iRacing IndyCar oval champion

MP: Thanks for breaking this down for everyone, Mark.

Q: I’m a long-time IndyCar fan. My dad took me to my first race in Milwaukee in 1979 when I was 7. Except for my high school graduation we never missed a Milwaukee IndyCar race (including when they also raced during State Fair). We also attended the 500 in ’85 and several Michigan 500 races, two at the paperclip in Chicago and four at Road America. We saw two of Greg Moore’s five wins live from the stands.

I have to say I’m worried IndyCar is now beyond repair or resuscitation. It has forgotten its identity and has offered no fight to F1 and NASCAR in recent years. And let’s be honest here, NASCAR basically set out to destroy IndyCar in the ’90s and it succeeded. Who was encouraging Tony George to form his stupid breakaway series? Bill France.

No national advertising, no presence in stores, movies, TV series, etc… No video games, and then there’s the engine debacle.

I thought Penske would save IndyCar and act as an American Bernie Ecclestone. Instead, he has no ideas, provides no fight and evidently will be OK with the status quo until only the Indy 500 remains on the schedule.

Why exactly should we support a dying series? And why aren’t former drivers like A.J., Mario, J.R., Johncock, Sullivan, Vasser, the Andrettis, Tracy, Unser Jr. et al taking the series to task? It’s inexcusable to go from the crowds and TV from 1990-95 to the pathetic crowds and lack of presence today.

Even the 500 isn’t a national story like it used to be. Daytona gets more coverage.

Dan in Milwaukee

MP: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, Dan.

Q: A 33-year-old fan from Dunfermline, Scotland, here. I know it's probably too late to change what's happened, but I just wanted to share my disappointment with the iRacing news and my story about how the platform led me to become a huge IndyCar fan. I hope this can assist when it comes to making your future decisions around gaming and how you attract new (and younger) fans.

Growing up in the British Isles, I had almost zero exposure to IndyCar. The only motorsport I knew or followed was F1. Dario Franchitti was born just 20 miles away from where I live. What did I know about him? Almost nothing.

Things began to change for me about five years ago when I turned 28. With my work life becoming a little more settled, I had more free time to discover motorsport and also began sim racing.

My first proper exposure to IndyCar was driving the officially licensed content on Project CARS 2. It was fun and I learned the basics, but when I saw YouTuber Jimmy Broadbent competing in the iRacing Indy 500, I was completely sucked in.

Over the years, I have invested probably north of £4,000 ($4,800) on a gaming PC, wheelbase, steering wheel, monitors and more -- partly so I could take part in this amazing event iRacing put on every year. And once I had the gear and raced in my first iRacing Indy 500, things just snowballed. I joined a European-based IndyCar league on iRacing in the summer of 2021. I loved driving the car and therefore began taking part in iRacing's official IndyCar series every week since December 2021.

I was spotted by a European team called Indy Alliance Racing and I agreed to join them 12 months ago. I have raced alongside my teammates almost every week since then, even qualifying for the top split of iRacing's 2022 Indy 500 and finishing runner-up in the year-long iRacing IndyCar Series for 2022.

The friends I have made -- from Sweden, to the Middle East, to Ohio -- all because of that initial exposure to IndyCar on Project CARS 2 and subsequently iRacing, has literally changed my life. Despite the time zone differences, I watched almost every real-life IndyCar race in 2022 on Sky Sports and attending the Indy 500 became a bucket list ambition for me.

I have even been watching your "Classic Rewind" videos on YouTube while cradling my 7-day old son. I am all-in with IndyCar.

So, while I completely understand IndyCar's ambition for a console game to be made and I am fully behind the general idea, I cannot tell you how devastating this exclusive deal with Motorsport Games will be for myself, my Indy Alliance Racing teammates and the general sim racing community.

I'd love the world to fall in love with IndyCar, but signing exclusive gaming deals only excludes people. Maybe a miracle will happen and Motorsports Games will make an incredible product, but at least give people that possibility to switch over to it naturally rather than taking away their opportunities in the games they currently love. I don't think IndyCar understands how much it has alienated people, created hostility to its product and damaged its reputation.

I don't know what I'm going to do with my limited free time now that I can't use iRacing to drive the IndyCar on IndyCar tracks. I suspect I will drive iRacing’s LMDh instead. I already watch most IMSA races, but I driving the LMDh on iRacing will probably influence me to watch more IMSA now, and probably WEC too.

If there is a way to reverse the new exclusive deal with Motorsport Games, please, please do it.

IndyCar fan from Dunfermline, Scotland

MP: As I understand, you’ll still be able to use the various Dallara Indy cars on iRacing, but not on the tracks where IndyCar competes, and not in any of the ways you’ve been accustomed to, which probably isn’t much of a consolation.

For maximum realism they should have had a little virtual Robin sitting on a golf cart in the background talking with virtual A.J. about the 1961 Hut Hundred. Image via IndyCar

THE FINAL WORD

From Robin Miller’s Mailbag, April 1, 2020

Q: Kudos to IndyCar for trying out the iRacing deal. I really tried to watch it, but just couldn’t get there. I’m happy for others who got enjoyment out of it. I’m not sure I’ll ever get into it like real racing, but I have a suggestion. As a younger brother I got a lot of experience being forced to watch others (my older brother and his friends) play video games. When it was fun, it was because they were trash talking each other the whole time and then backing it up or not on the game in real time.

I’d like to watch another version of the iRacing deal where the drivers are all connected to each other via radio. Maybe to make it manageable you have each driver able to talk to the two cars in front and the two behind. Drivers and announcers should be encouraged to talk trash to each other. Make it fun and light. Stop treating this like real racing -- there’s no risk, no reward and no danger. I’m not interested in pretending there is. I am interested in watching a fun version of my favorite sport until it can come back for real.

Clint, Chicago

ROBIN MILLER: That’s the best suggestion I’ve heard since all this madness started with fake racing. I’d love to hear drivers badmouthing each other, as well as giving it back to the NBC booth. That would be entertaining. I’ve sent your suggestion to IndyCar. Thanks.